The 2007-2008 Fellows represent a wide variety of sectors including non-profit, foundations, government, and business. They come from ten states nationwide as well as Mexico, South Africa, the Netherlands, Indonesia, and Costa Rica.  The Fellows work brings knowledge and experience of sustainability from an assortment of issue areas including climate change, global health, farming, conservation, oceans, renewable energy, natural resource management, and activism as well as new issue areas previously unrepresented in the Fellows program such as architecture, the air force and theater. By design, the third cohort is comprised of sixteen women and four men.

Fellows were selected for their ability to grapple effectively with multi-stakeholders and diverse issues in their current work, and for their potential to influence thinking in wide circles of people. Each Fellow employs an approach to sustainability that displays analytic clarity, systemic change and attention to spirit, values, and meaning.

Biographies

	Karabi Acharya Change Leader, Ashoka: Innovators for the Public Arlington, VA
Karabi has worked in the field of international health and development for over 15 years throughout Asia and Africa. Trained as a public health anthropologist, she wears several professional hats including researcher, evaluator, trainer (adult educator), and technical expert. At Ashoka, Karabi is leading the efforts articulate the theory of change and metrics to assess progress. Prior to Ashoka, she worked at the Academy for Educational Development and developed the SCALE (System-Wide Collaborative Action for Livelihoods and the Environment) process which seeks to generate system-wide change by strengthening relationships among diverse stakeholders and generating social capital in a common issue area. More (+)
	Gabriela Anaya Program Officer, Northwest Mexico Land Conservation Program, Resources Law Group La Paz, Mexico
Gabriela has over 15 years of experience developing and implementing conservation projects in the nonprofit and in the government sectors in Mexico. Before joining Resources Law Group, she served as Executive Director of Niparajá, a leading nonprofit organization in Northwest Mexico, and as manager of National Parks for the National Commission of Protected Areas. Gabriela serves in a number of committees and advisory boards of nonprofits and philanthropic organizations, including the Mexican Fund for the Conservation of Nature, a private foundation that channels financial resources to on-the-ground conservation projects throughout Mexico. Gabriela’s current appointment at Resources Law Group involves providing strategic advice and oversight for the Northwest Mexico Land Conservation Program of the Resources Legacy Fund (RLF), a public charity based in Sacramento, California. RLF offers strategic expertise in designing and implementing programs to conserve natural resources, creating innovative opportunities for effective conservation philanthropy, and advising on land use and natural resources protection and policy. More (+)
	Nicole Betancourt Founder, CEO, Parent Earth New York City, New York
Nicole has been working in media production and nonprofit management for fifteen years. Her work focuses on using media and story telling to shift consciousness, create empathy for the “other,” generate compassion and spark social and environmental change. Intrinsic to her work is the building of networks between artists, businesses, social change agents and other stakeholders. Her past work includes producing and directing an Emmy award-winning documentary, video art installations, an award-winning short film festival and popular web-based communities. She is currently creating Parent Earth, a new hybrid (non-profit/for-profit) company using online media to answer parents’ questions about food and help create a world that supports healthy, thriving children.
	Josephine Brennan Director of African Development, BioAlcohol Fuel Foundation Johannesburg, South Africa
Josephine works with the Swedish Bio-Alcohol Fuel Foundation (BAFF) which is working to assist in Sweden’s shift towards sustainable transport using renewable fuels.  BAFF has spent the last 20 years developing an end-to-end systems chain for ethanol to be adopted in Sweden as a renewable fuel contributing to Sweden’s independence from oil.  As a representative of BAFF in Africa, Josephine seeks to support national governments in developing long-term national programs for sustainable biofuels development, to enable them to leverage the opportunity for long term, sustainable economic and social development.  By participating in the Fellows program, Josephine aims to master the art of communicating systems thinking real-time in complex dialogues with key decision-makers.
	Laura Freeman Farmer and Entrepreneur, Mt. Folly Farm Winchester, Kentucky
In early 2008, Laura Freeman and her colleagues sold The Laura’s Lean Beef Company to Meyer Natural Beef of California. Thus, Freeman ended her run as President and CEO of the natural, low-fat beef business, taking Laura’s from a $10,000-a-year on-farm company to an annual $135 million dollar supplier to more than 6,000 retailers in the United States and Canada. Since the sale, Freeman has returned to daily involvement with the farm, encouraging a network of local trade in farm products for community farmers. She is now raising pastured pigs, in addition to vegetables, grass-fed beef, sheep, and beef for Laura’s. The goal is to establish a true local economy, understanding what can be produced and marketed to the rural clientele in a 20-mile radius. Freeman is a 2008 inductee into the Bluegrass Business Hall of Fame, and a member of the Administrative Council of the Southern Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education program of the United States Department of Agriculture. More (+)
	Lena Hansen Principal, Electricity Practice, Rocky Mountain Institute Boulder, Colorado
Lena is a Principal with Rocky Mountain Institute’s electricity practice, where she specializes in energy and carbon strategy as well as design innovation for electric utilities, heavy industry, and corporations. She contributes to and leads consulting projects on demand-side management, end-use energy efficiency, renewable energy integration, and greenhouse gas strategy. She has worked with a diverse set of electric utilities, including most recently managing RMI’s collaboration with Duke Energy. Lena’s research work focuses on RMI’s Next Generation Utility Initiative, which aims to help drive the transformation of the electric system away from fossil fuels. Specifically, she has worked on managing the variability of wind power, including “firming” and the impacts of geographically distributing systems. Lena holds a bachelor’s degree in astrophysics and in dramatic art from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a master’s degree in environmental economics and policy from Duke University.
	Danielle Hirsch Director, Both ENDS Amsterdam, Netherlands
Both ENDS supports organizations in developing countries to fight poverty and to work towards sustainable environmental management. Both ENDS focuses on the themes Water, Land and Capital. Both ENDS’ Service Desk helps organizations from developing countries and the former Eastern bloc to find answers to their questions pertaining to development and the environment. As a Director, Danielle and the Both ENDS team are committed to develop and implement Both ENDS’ vision in close cooperation with representatives of the environmental movements in the global South. Danielle holds a Masters in Development and Environmental Economics. Previous to working at Both ENDS she was an international consultant specializing in water and coastal zone management policies. More (+)
	Karin Jakubowski Coordinator, Northeast Science Center Collaboration Clean Air-Cool Planet Northford, Connecticut
Clean Air-Cool Planet is dedicated to finding and promoting solutions to climate change.  As coordinator of the Northeast Science Center Collaborative Karin works with more than 70 member organizations, bridging the gap between the public’s understanding of global warming and the science of climate change.  She manages seven programs that help science center educators become familiar with climate science and provide resources, trainings, and solutions.  Karin’s goal  is to help members feel comfortable teaching about the topic and implementing solutions in their communities. Prior to this position, Karin held adjunct professorships and worked for more than nine years in museums and science centers.  She has been a naturalist/guide in New York’s Central Park, Cape Cod Massachusetts, and Southeast Alaska.  Karin has a master’s in environmental conservation studies/marine affairs and a certificate in conservation biology.
	Anna Jones-Crabtree Regional Sustainable Operations Coordinator US Forest Service Helena, Montana
As the Forest Service’s first Sustainable Operations Coordinator Anna provides both regional and national leadership for the Rocky Mountain and Northern Regions. She works to pragmatically reduce the agency’s environmental footprint and clearly connect this footprint with the mission of a land management agency. Through establishing informal networks of champions throughout the agency and in partnership with other agencies, she works towards the implementation of alternative fuels programs, waste prevention/recycling efforts, environmentally preferable purchasing teams, energy and water conservation and renewable energy projects in a way that is embedded long term in the culture of the Forest Service. Anna has a PhD in Civil Engineering with a minor in sustainable systems. Anna and her husband Doug also own and manage Vilicus Farms a 1280 acre organic grain, oilseed, legume farm in north central Montana where they are championing both organic farms and other beginning farmers. More (+)
	Dana Lanza Co-Founder and Director, Confluence Philanthropy New York City, New York
Dana Lanza is the Co-Founder and Director of Confluence Philanthropy, a new project of Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors. Confluence helps foundations and charitable organizations to align their mission and values with their assets. For now, Confluence is specifically focused on the environment; guiding charities to participate in the creation of a sustainable economy by leveraging investment opportunities in the market and communities. From 2005-2009 Dana served as the Executive Director of the Environmental Grantmakers Association (EGA). Her purpose there was to provide networking guidance to over 250 environmental grantmaking organizations from across North America and Europe in 15 strategic funding areas. While acting as Director, Dana led the incorporation of EGA into an independent 501c3 organization after 20 years under the Rockefeller Family Fund Beyond this, Dana has a long-standing and remarkable history in championing ecological and environmental justice. At the age of 28, Dana founded Literacy for Environmental Justice (LEJ), which brought free urban environmental education projects to more than 10,000 public school students, while employing hundreds of at risk youth as community advocates. During her tenure at LEJ, she acted as a lead organizer in the closure of San Francisco’s infamous Hunters Point Power Plant; later raising funds to supplant it with the region’s first off-the-grid Eco Center. She has taught in the Master’s in Teaching Program in Critical Global Literacy at New College of California, and has been a fellow in the Donella Meadows Leadership Fellows Program in systems theory and the California Women’s Foundation Policy Institute. A recipient of several environmental awards, she has presented at Bioneers, the American Public Health Association, and the European Foundation Center, among others. In 2005, she contributed to the anthology titled Ecological Literacy: Educating Our Children for a Sustainable World. Prior to these achievements, Dana lived and worked among the Samburu people in northern Kenya for many years, as well as the Lakota in South Dakota. Dana holds a Masters degree in Social and Cultural Anthropology from the California Institute of Integral Studies and a BA from Boston College in Psychology and Environmental Studies.
	Maria Latumahina Director, Papua Civil Society Support Foundation/ UK-Department for International Development Jayapura, Papau, Indonesia
As director and co-founder of PCSSF and regional facilitator of the DFID Forestry Program, Maria is dedicated to advancing mulitstakeholder dialogue focused on the sustainable management of the tremendous natural resources found in Papua while improving the quality of life for the citizens of Indonesia’s poorest province. Although the Papauan culture reflects their tight relationship with the environment and natural resources, the individual citizen is not the only member at the decision table. Maria and her colleagues strive to bring all stakeholders (government, private sector, parliament, community and military) together to discuss and develop parameters for a definition of sustainable and equitable environment and natural resource management while balancing each individual groups’ interests and concerns. Some important points of focus include examining the incentives for the community to protect the environment, and the incentives for the military, the private sector and the government to collaborate. What legal, financial and political scenarios should be in place? Developing approaches to these questions is how Maria applies the skills she learned in the Fellows Program. More (+)
	Justin Maxson President, Mountain Association for Community Economic Development Berea, Kentucky
Justin has been engaged in social change work in Kentucky and across the country for 15 years. He is currently President of the Mountain Association for Community Economic Development (MACED), a 30-year old multi-strategy community economic development organization serving central Appalachia based in Berea, Kentucky. MACED creates economic alternatives that work for people and places. MACED employs three major strategies—enterprise development, research for policy reform and demonstration initiatives. Justin’s work is focused on exploring local economic development strategies that increase economic security for people in need and provide regional responses to climate change. Previous to MACED, he was founding Executive Director of the Progressive Technology Project. He holds a masters in anthropology from Boston University.
	John Mlade National Market Sector Research Manager, Perkins and Will Architects Atlanta, Georgia
John is a green building and sustainability researcher at Perkins and Will, the third largest architecture firm in the country. Hired as part of Perkins and Wills’ corporate commitment to sustainability, John serves as a firm-wide sustainability resource to facilitate design, research and education and has worked on sustainable design projects for clients as diverse as Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Homeland Security, National Institute of Health, Georgia Institute of Technology and Texas A&M University.  His expertise in green building is complemented by his participation in his community as an educator and organizer.
	Susanne Moser Director and Principal Researcher, Susanne Moser Research & Consulting Santa Cruz, California
Susi is an action researcher whose work focuses on the societal impacts of, and responses to, climate change, and on how to communicate global warming in a way that facilitates the necessary social changes. In 2007, she published an anthology on the topic, entitled Creating a Climate for Change: Communicating Climate Change and Facilitating Social Change (Cambridge University Press). Since leaving academia proper, she’s been working as an independent researcher with states, communities, federal agencies, philanthropic organizations, NGOs and universities on projects related to adaptation to climate change, resilience, effective climate change communication and public engagement. She has addressed these issues in the coastal, forest, public health, conservation and urban context, and continues to apply Donella Meadow’s leverage points concept and other systems thinking to her work. More (+)
	Nirmala Nair Director, Zero Emissions Research and Initiatives Cape Town, South Africa
Nirmala began her career in sustainable development in Rajasthan, India working with the Barefoot College in the seventies. She went on to live in the Netherlands studying and working for devleopmental NGOs like HIVOS. She moved to South Africa for personal reasons in 1993 and continues to live in Cape Town with her daughters, keeping her connectwork between India and South Africa intact. She is the director of Zero Emissions Research and Initiatives Southern Africa chapter. Currently she is doing her PhD . Her main focus this year is investing the rebuilding of an eco-township community project in one of the largest townships in Cape Town, making it truly sustainable from a multiple perspectives – local ecosystems balancing; healing the township community through alternative energy healing and ehalth work; creating a truly sustainable dwelling that can locally sustain itself and be resilient enough to bounce back in times of crisis. Nirmala’s approach to sustainability thus is more multi-dimensional and heart-centered that bridge as well as synthesize deep spirit in a truly transformative process. More (+)
	Brooke Simler Smith Executive Director, Communication Partnership for Science and the Sea (COMPASS) Corvallis, Oregon
At COMPASS Brooke has helped build a non-traditional bridging organization that connects ocean scientists and science to the media, public policy discussions, and other scientific discussions. COMPASS works to ensure marine science is synthesized in a manner relevant to society, is strategically communicated to the right people at the right times, and empowers the scientists themselves to be the communicators of their own information. The unique nature of COMPASS’ work demands a creative approach to strategic planning, implementation and program management. Brooke is interested in finding synergies among COMPASS’ science, policy and communications initiatives in order to increase COMPASS’ cumulative impact and the benefit to other marine conservation efforts.
	Steven Smith Coordinator, Iowa Network for Community Agriculture Marshalltown, Iowa
For twelve years the Iowa Network for Community Agriculture (INCA) has been fostering connections between farmers and community members who are growing sustainable local food systems in Iowa.  Steve works to assure that each system is shaped and owned by all the local stakeholders in the “food flow” from field to table.  Steve is committed with INCA to growing the next generation of farmers and sustainable farms, including helping immigrants and refugees, many farmers in their country of origin, to become successful established farmers in local food systems.  As a fifth generation Iowa farmer who himself has made the transition from industrial scale commodities to small farm organics, it is important to Steve that “everybody is welcome at the table.” Insight into productively engaging multiple and often antagonistic stakeholders in a focused process is one thing he hopes to gain from the Fellowship.  Steve’s work gives shape to his commitment to sustainable farming, a diversified countryside, and the distributed production of healthy, safe, and secure food available to all.
	Maria Suarez Co-Director, Feminist International Radio Endeavour Co-Coordinator, Wings of the Butterfly Ciudad Colon, Costa Rica
Feminist International Radio Endeavor (FIRE) is an internet radio station produced by women. Wings of the Butterfly aims to activate social movements though artistic expressions.  Maria has had a long career as women’s human rights, social justice and communication as a human right activist.  She has written several books, including her most recent Se Vende Lindo Pais (Pretty Country for Sale) (2001) and La Tranca (The Spell) (2002), which she co-authored with the Costa Rican activist, Cristina Zeledon.  Both books focus on the struggle to stop oil exploration in Costa Rica.  Maria has recently completed a Ph.D. program in Education from La Salle University in Costa Rica and explains it as a life changing experience.  Her doctoral dissertation was titled “Women: Metamorphosis of a Butterfly Effect” which comprised 26 chapters designed to render visibility to women’s paradigmatic contributions in the sciences, arts, politics, and literature.  She is presently involved in a project to turn her doctoral dissertation into a musical theatre show as part of a proposal to include art in the reactivation of social movements for transformation.
	Catharina Any Sulistyowati Coordinator for Youth Program and Sustainable Community Initiative, Kuncup Padang Ilalang  (KAIL) Bandung, Indonesia
Catharina Any Sulistyowati is a LEAD Indonesia Fellow (1998-2000) and alumni of Donella Meadows Leadership Fellows Program (2007-2008). She has a bachelor’s degree in Aeronautical Engineering from Bandung Institute of Technology (1995) and Master of Arts in Development Studies from Institute of Social Studies, The Hague, The Netherlands (2000-2001). Her passion is to motivate people to act effectively in responses to social and environmental problems. Since 2002, she works in KAIL (Kuncup Padang Ilalang), an NGO which does capacity building for youth to increase their awareness of environmental and social problems. She uses system thinking elements as part of her training and facilitation modules. She has various training and facilitating experience, ranging from the local level such as facilitating women’s group meetings in rural areas to team building for international organizations. Starting from 2009, her work focused on three main things: (1) facilitating youth in developing their vision for sustainable world; (2) facilitating communities/organization towards their sustainable goals; and (3) writing examples of sustainability initiatives. Her biggest challenge is how to change the mindset of people towards sustainability and is now devoting significant effort towards finding ways to set up a community learning center for sustainability in Indonesia. More (+)
	William Young Director Commander’s Action Group, Air Force Education and Training, Lieutenant Colonel, US Air Force San Antonio, Texas
An accomplished strategist and leader, William is a Lieutenant Colonel with nearly 18 years in the United States Air Force. In addition to his day-to-day duties leading one of the nation’s premiere Electronic Warfare units, he is working to improve military methods for strategy development in the Information Age by leveraging systems thinking and sustainable design approaches. Outside of his military duties, William assists several non-profit and charitable organizations in developing actionable strategies to address challenging problems through improved problem structuring. William’s work has garnered national recognition, and both Ebony and Black Enterprise Magazine have profiled him in leadership articles. In 2008, the United States Junior Chamber recognized William as one of the Ten Outstanding Young Americans for his sustained outstanding leadership and accomplishments. More (+)

Application to Work

Karabi Acharya

Change Leader, Ashoka: Innovators for the Public
Arlington, VA

Karabi has begun to apply many of the lessons from the Fellowship, starting with visioning and systems diagrams. The Fellows program enabled her to leap off many cliffs, made her a “climate change convert” (it’s not just for environmentalists!) and changed the way she approaches life in ways that are still unfolding.

Gabriela Anaya

Program Officer, Northwest Mexico Land Conservation Program
Resources Law Group
La Paz, Mexico

Gabriela applies the lessons and skills from the Fellowship to help create alternative coastal development visions and conservation strategies for Northwest Mexico.

Laura Freeman

Farmer and Entrepreneur
Mt. Folly Farm
Winchester, Kentucky

As an entrepreneur, her research into the “next act” has taken her across the United States and to Europe. Through the Meadows Fellowship, she became attuned to the magnitude and speed of climate change, so most of the thought and discussion has centered on how to produce and deliver food and energy fairly, while leaving a far smaller carbon footprint.

Given the deep recession, Freeman has decided to begin by working on carbon sequestration in pasture and forest, with a particular emphasis on the economics thereof. She also is interested in ways to deal with methane from ruminants on pasture.

Danielle Hirsch

Director, Both ENDS
Amsterdam, Netherlands

Danielle is applying the learnings and experiences of the Fellowship constantly in her work: Vision development is increasingly part of the activities to meet the complex challenges of her first job as a director. Systems thinking has turned out to be a major support tool in discussing sustainability challenges and opportunities with peers, business leaders and government officials. The lessons learned from her Fellows through the programed real life simulations keep confirming themselves day after day.

Anna Jones-Crabtree

Regional Sustainable Operations Coordinator, Rocky Mountain and Northern Regions, US Forest Service
Helena, Montana

Where to begin – the Fellows experience has literally influenced all aspects of my life, not just my work and it continues to do so through this incredible network of other Fellows who I routinely call on. Systems thinking and reflective conversations have provided a way to sift through the myriad of opportunities and ‘things to do’ each day in a way that’s more strategic and moves my vision of sustainability forward without getting so overwhelmed. I now have additional tools in my toolbox from which to help support my staff and others I work with reach their potential as I’m learning to reach my own.

Maria Latumahina

Director, Papua Civil Society Support Foundation/ UK-Department for International Development
Jayapura, Papau, Indonesia

Currently, Maria is also working closely with Catharina Any Sulistyowati, her colleague Fellow, to establish a sustainability training center and community in the forests above Bandung. The center would be an example of how people can live a high quality of life while at the same time conserving the forest. She wants the community to be replicated by common people, not only by rich people, who have the money to buy land.

Susanne Moser

Director and Principal Researcher, Susanne Moser Research and Consulting
Santa Cruz, California

During the Fellows Program, Susi changed jobs (from an academic position to an independent consulting business) and worked through that challenging transition.

Her work on communication for social change, climate change adaptation, and the interaction between science and policy continues to be deeply inspired by the truth-telling, courageous, and heart-filled modeling by Dana Meadows. She is trying to follow in those footsteps in her work with states, communities, governments and non-profits. Through the alumni network, she also started working with Shanna Ratner (Cohort 1) on a project exploring the factors that make rural communities more resilient in the face of stress and change.

As of mid-2009, Susi has been helping the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) develop a guidance manual for its conservation field staff on how to engage in climate change adaptation. Susi feels that Dana would be proud, as she drew significantly on her visioning and leverage point approaches for effecting change in complex systems. She hope that similar ideas – slightly adapted – will survive government review of California’s first statewide adaptation strategy (which she had a hand in).

In addition, Susi is involved in a large scale, Congressionally-mandated National Resource Council (NRC) study called America’s Climate Choices. The purpose of the study is to provide science-based policy advice to help guide America’s responses (mitigation and adaptation) to climate change.

Nirmala Nair

Director, Zero Emissions Research and Initiatives
Cape Town, South Africa

Nirmala is a consultant, researcher, trainer, workshop facilitator and yoga teacher applying and living in systems mode all the time. An organic systems thinker, Nirmala benefited enormously from the sessions at SI. Her PhD process got birthed during the Fellowship . Nirmala hopes that this PhD will really contribute to the current development thinking – bridging complexity and systems thinking to envision a new development practice.

Her networking enabled a co-Fellow from Costa Rica, Maria Suarez, to bring her play “Wings of the Butterfly” to the township project Nirmala is involved with. The connections made across the continents between South African women and Costa Rican actresses was invaluable. In the wake of a recent tragedy the women in the township drew inspiration form the play to rise up and move forward.

Climate change work has also been part of her focus as the director of ZERISA. Recently she was invited to the Stockholm-based Tallberg Forum meeting in Cape Town to discuss the topic “Copenhagen and Africa – solutions we need.” It has been possible to raise the issues of ground reality; strengthening the understanding of the negotiators and at the same time not loose sight of the ground work. The documentary feature film that Nirmala initiated – Nature of Life – focusing on Africa’s climate change issues will be released shortly.

Catharina Any Sulistyowati

Coordinator for Youth Program and Sustainable Community Initiative, Kuncup Padang Ilalang (KAIL)
Bandung, Indonesia

Through her participation in Donella Meadows Leadership Fellow Program, Catharina Any has deepened her understanding about systems thinking, brought about her inner visioning skills, developed new skills in facilitation/training, coaching, reflective conversation, and balancing her personal and professional life. Most of the workshop contents are used in her training and facilitation as well as in her personal life. She uses visioning and causal loop diagramming in almost every situation and is still working hard to apply reflective conversation. She sets up peer coaching groups in her youth program and is trying to find ways to initiate a learning center for sustainability in Indonesia, both inspired by her participation in the Fellows program.

Currently she is working closely with Maria Latumahina, her colleague Fellow, to establish a sustainability training center and community in the forests above Bandung. The center would be an example of how people can live a high quality of life while at the same time conserving the forest. She wants the community to be replicated by common people, not only by rich people, who have the money to buy land.

William Young

Director, Commander’s Action Group, Air Force Education and Training
Lieutenant Colonel, US Air Force
San Antonio, Texas

William’s time as a Fellow has initiated a rich and growing conversation within a number of circles on the importance of security as a prerequisite for a sustainable future. As the defense community begins to tackle the sustainability challenge in earnest, William has positioned himself to bridge the gap between the sustainability community and the security community. As a result of his experiences and learnings as a Fellow, William is now studying potential futures of how climate negotiations and agreements may impact national and global security. He is also beginning to introduce time-tested and proven military campaign design methodologies into the sustainability community. These techniques hold the promise of helping organizations improve their effectiveness in promoting their sustainability objectives. Perhaps most importantly, William has aggressively applied the advanced coaching skills developed during the Fellowship to improve his effectiveness as a commander, mentor and leader in and out of uniform.